Go to page
25of 52
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 1,767 messages
  • January 26, 2023 17:35
500
added
1K
prices
2.5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 26, 2023 17:35
I still can't quite figure it out with the FDC. Random example, #9327375 is not an FDC in my opinion (according to the manual). No image and I don't think it was produced in an edition. Does this fall into a different category? For example, an occasional envelope or other (quite easy). Or is something like this not included postmaster?.
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • 64 messages
  • January 26, 2023 18:39
1K
added
500
prices
50
posts
January 26, 2023 18:39
Commemorative stamps on the occasional envelope of a person who died on 2-1-1872, but cancel 20-1-1972, so not 100 years.
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • 173 messages
  • January 26, 2023 19:34
2.5K
added
10K
prices
100
posts
January 26, 2023 19:34
Definitely a first-day-use,as the stamp was issued on Jan 20th,1972.
Not an illustrated FDC,but a FDC nevertheless.
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 1,767 messages
  • January 26, 2023 20:01
500
added
1K
prices
2.5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 26, 2023 20:01
You are right Salentin but I don't think it is included as FDC with LD.
See handbook.
An FDC is a special illustrated, limited edition envelope, with the stamp(s) first issued on that day and postmarked with the date of the first day of issue.

My question is, will this be included as something else?
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 551 messages
  • January 26, 2023 21:05
2.5K
added
25K
prices
25
info pages
50K
reviews
500
posts
January 26, 2023 21:05
I would categorize it as an occasional envelope, as it does not bear any mention of 'FDC' (Ersttag). Even if the date stamp would be the 1st day of issue (because that can also be the case on regular mail).
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 1,767 messages
  • January 26, 2023 21:17
500
added
1K
prices
2.5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 26, 2023 21:17
Problem is wilfredb , which the manual says,

10.3 Occasion Envelope / Card
Envelope resp. card issued in edition. This must meet 3 conditions: • Printed with text and/or image related to the subject of the issue. • Covered with stamp(s). • Stamping. Preferably with, if available, a stamp specially created for this issue.

Then it is no longer an occasional envelope.

Other than that, that doesn't sound right either, does it?.
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • 637 messages
  • January 26, 2023 21:26
250
added
100
prices
100
info pages
500
posts
January 26, 2023 21:26
Charles1971
Salentin
To be in accordance with the original Dutch text, the first sentence of the German translation should be as follows:
"10.4 Ersttagsbrief (FDC)
Ein FDC ist ein spezieller illustrierter,
in Auflage gebrachter Umschlag mit der Marke(n), die an diesem Tag zum ersten Mal ausgegeben ist (sind) und mit dem Datum des ersten Ausgabetages abgestempelt ist (sind).
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 1,767 messages
  • January 26, 2023 21:42
500
added
1K
prices
2.5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 26, 2023 21:42
Ein FDC ist ein spezieller illustrierter, in Umlauf broughter Umschlag, mit der Briefmarke(n) die an diesem Tag erstmals ausgegebent (sind) und abgetempelt ist (sind) mit dem Datum des Erstausgabetages.

Totally agree Loriot , above is the text as it is now. Only as already said, the German manual is still being checked, it is currently being processed.
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 551 messages
  • January 27, 2023 07:06
2.5K
added
25K
prices
25
info pages
50K
reviews
500
posts
January 27, 2023 07:06
Charles1971 you are right. Then it certainly does not belong in Stamps but in Other/ Envelope ('Object' section of your choice ... )

Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 1,331 messages
  • January 27, 2023 08:50
500
prices
10
info pages
5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 27, 2023 08:50
wilfredb Charles1971
Still, I'd like to know what postmaster has to say about this.
You have to look at the combination cover/stamp/stamp.
In this case it is indeed the correct stamp with the correct FDC stamp. So no random stamp, no stamp from a random post office and no occasional envelope, because not for any occasion.
In other LD categories this is "home industry" and would go straight into the bin, but stamp collectors tend to put together their own covers. If you look at old stamps, usually there were no FDC covers and everyone just had a blank cover stamped. If you refuse this you can throw away a whole part of the catalog #7508157 #7252159 #8445189 .
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 1,767 messages
  • January 27, 2023 10:17
500
added
1K
prices
2.5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 27, 2023 10:17
Read the FDC chapter again. In doing so, I came across this,

5. A stamp other than the special FDC stamp, but with the relevant date of cancellation, will be included once. Postmarks with other place names, etc. are not included separately.

Only for #9327375 then the issue is,

An FDC is a special illustrated, limited edition envelope


Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 1,331 messages
  • January 27, 2023 10:33
500
prices
10
info pages
5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 27, 2023 10:33
Charles1971
You are right, if I have an envelope stamped on the first day of issue in a random post office, then it can never have been made in an edition because there is only 1. Or do they mean that I start a business myself and make my own envelopes " in edition" make?
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 4,023 messages
  • January 27, 2023 11:51
10K
added
25K
prices
100
info pages
250K
reviews
2.5K
posts
January 27, 2023 11:51
It is the other way around!

FDC was originally a matter for collectors, who cycled to a post office with a (self-addressed) envelope to get the stamps, stick them on and submit them. A little later, the collector received his cover, with a date stamp 'first day' on it.
That's FDC philately. That's how it came about, that's what an FDC is.
As a collector you had to know well on which day an 'issue' of stamps appeared. Because only on that day were you allowed to register with your envelope at the counter.

For the sake of philately (and commercially to stimulate the phenomenon, which benefited stamp sales), the Post started making special stamps that were used on the first day of issue to devalue the stamps on those postal items.

After that, the stamp dealers flew in to deliver en masse envelopes (with their recognizable logo or name) with their own address to the post office. Sometimes those traders had special covers made (with a nice drawing on it). Sometimes not. With a profit margin, they were sold to collectors whose bicycle tires had become worn out in the meantime. As a collector you no longer had to know when a new stamp was issued, and you could lie comfortably in your bed. The stamp dealer took care of it.

The fact that a lot of money could be made with it did not go unnoticed by certain publishers/companies. They saw the lucrative in it and pulled the sheet to themselves. That is how it went for and in ALL countries. Not turned around.
The Postal Services liked to play along (for a fee, of course) and collectors were suddenly no longer allowed to cycle to the post office with an envelope. Initially, there was still one 'central' FDC counter. Later a closed counter (only delivery directly by NVPH to the Postal Services). Collectors and the stamp trade were completely sidelined. Money makes people and companies do strange things.

So it is NOT that FDCs were suddenly put together by collectors themselves. It is the commerce that wanted to make a lot of profit with it and have manipulated the original concept of FDC.
Featuring the world-renowned pinnacle of vanity and conceit by NVPH: 'Official FDC'. The publisher of the 'Official' catalog (so the others are illegal) who published their own stuff, and included it in that 'Official' catalog.

In the meantime, greed has caught up with those 'publishers'. Where initially FDCs were made and sold in editions of more than 500,000 copies, the latest issues of FDCs barely reach an edition of 5,000 copies.
Soon the postal services will have to open an FDC counter again out of poverty :)

Admit it: are you willing to buy 'official' FDCs from the Netherlands from the 1970s and 1980s? Fortunately, in Belgium, the paper is still collected as waste for free :) :) :)
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 1,767 messages
  • January 27, 2023 13:18
500
added
1K
prices
2.5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 27, 2023 13:18
A very nice story Raoul62 , can be done on the background page FDC. Unfortunately, it misses the intent of my question. It is not my intention to rekindle an earlier discussion that has been closed. The rules are now fixed. I was just wondering, if #9327375 is n't an FDC (according to manual), under which to put it.
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
az60
VIP
  • 1,252 messages
  • January 27, 2023 14:24
1K
added
100
info pages
2.5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 27, 2023 14:24
Category Other: Postmarking. (If it is not an FDC or occasion envelope).
This is all about the stamp.
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 1,767 messages
  • January 27, 2023 15:27
500
added
1K
prices
2.5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 27, 2023 15:27
#9584119 and #9584117 and #5411815 and #3876909 ???.

These are a few more examples.
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 4,023 messages
  • January 27, 2023 16:20
10K
added
25K
prices
100
info pages
250K
reviews
2.5K
posts
January 27, 2023 16:20
Opportunities:
- remove the image everywhere (eg #1417667 ) so that no discussion is possible;
- as az60 suggests moving several hundred items to the "Other / Postmarking" section. Starting with #4486061 , and #5951937 ...
Is there an NVPH field in the 'Other' section?
- place a separate FDC section and everything from FDC there (no longer in the stamp section;
- ... (be creative, let yourself go).

Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue manager
  • 5,329 messages
  • January 27, 2023 16:45
1K
added
100K
prices
25
info pages
500K
reviews
5K
posts
January 27, 2023 16:45
A year ago the FDC was described in the Handbook at 10.4.
Is the text unclear or do we disagree with this text?
If the text is unclear, please provide usable text suggestions that fit what it says now.

It has been agreed that action will be taken in accordance with the manual. If something has not (yet) been described literally, then act in the spirit of the handbook.
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • 173 messages
  • January 27, 2023 16:48
100
added
100
posts
January 27, 2023 16:48
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/FDC
To make it clearer...

Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
az60
VIP
  • 1,252 messages
  • January 27, 2023 16:49
1K
added
100
info pages
2.5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 27, 2023 16:49
- place a separate FDC section and everything from FDC there (no longer in the stamp section;
I think my position is well known. The advantage of your own FDC section is that it is clearer for the FDCs, it is clearer for the stamps section and that you can better attune the input fields to what is essential for the FDCs, instead of what is essential for the stamps. If you combine it with the 'section' postmarks, you can also add all old first-day envelopes, so the envelopes without a picture but with a first-day cancellation. Hopefully LastDodo will be more suitable for keeping track of your FDC collection. I also think that the occasional envelopes in such a new section fit in perfectly.
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
az60
VIP
  • 1,252 messages
  • January 27, 2023 16:53
1K
added
100
info pages
2.5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 27, 2023 16:53
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 1,767 messages
  • January 27, 2023 17:03
500
added
1K
prices
2.5K
reviews
1K
posts
January 27, 2023 17:03
An own section FDC and Co also seems like a good plan to me. At least they are all together, and not spread over different sections. The rules for entering FDC can therefore be more flexible, so that everyone can simply enter their own FDC.
It therefore brings more peace to the stamp section, no more discussions about FDC and Co.
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 4,023 messages
  • January 27, 2023 17:35
10K
added
25K
prices
100
info pages
250K
reviews
2.5K
posts
January 27, 2023 17:35
In the stamp section, are we immediately rid of that new (besides 'series') exceptional exception, which goes against the basic principles.
... as a series on 2 envelopes ...

I got it then (last year in January), and still do now.
1 envelope = 1 item on LD. Point.
To be kept together with 'Issue'. That's what a field is for.

In memory of someone who used common sense: "no combination items."
And also the wisdom:
if something can come loose - even if it belongs to something - it can be entered as a separate item.

You will only have one FDC series in which one is missing ... Then you now have to search for the FDC that contains the full series and purchase it? Do you then have to steam off the excess stamps? What nonsense about the seventh buttonhole. It was deep, it's deep, and it will always be deep.
In Belgium we say "It was invented again by an unworldly office guy in Brussels who doesn't know what he's talking about."



Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • Catalogue administrator
  • 499 messages
  • January 27, 2023 22:02
10K
added
100K
prices
10
info pages
500K
reviews
500
posts
January 27, 2023 22:02
It is not an item that belongs in the stamp section for the reasons already mentioned and in accordance with the handbook. Could possibly be placed in the cancellations section under other,Charles1971
Message has been translated from Dutch
Show original message
  • 637 messages
  • January 27, 2023 23:08
250
added
100
prices
100
info pages
500
posts
January 27, 2023 23:08
I do not agree at all with this interpretation:
The original Dutch text reads as follows:
 "Een FDC is een speciale geïllustreerde, in oplage gemaakte envelop, met de postzegel(s) die op die dag
voor het eerst zijn uitgegeven en zijn afgestempeld met de datum van de eerste dag van uitgifte.
"
I cannot imagine that the envelope of  #9327375 was the only one that was made for this occasion, but that it concerns a number of envelopes made in advance with the new stamp(s) and the first-day postmark.
In my opinion, it is a circulation of a certain number of envelopes, prepared in advance, and then, as they were sold, supplemented by the buyer's address and thus sent. I therefore believe that all the criteria of the manual have been met.
Go to page
25of 52
Topic is locked