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April 09, 2024 19:56
Before the discussion about Series takes over that of Issue, here is the new topic about the Series field.
Currently, Series is only mentioned in the Handbook, but there is no description anywhere.
Who dares to make the first move?
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April 09, 2024 20:14
Field? I think it's a value that the "kind" field can take.

And as it is applied it is a completely arbitrary collection of stamps.
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April 09, 2024 20:22
Have we left again for 10 pages and more?
M curious...
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April 09, 2024 20:25
Esquerdo
You're right, Series is a (much-discussed) Species.
I was still too focused on the Issue field....
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April 09, 2024 20:28
Part of the definition is already included in the definition of an issue:
"An Issue is a series of stamps issued as a coherent whole and usually issued uniformly, plus products derived from those stamps such as FDCs."
N.B. Long-term series can form provisional series when the end date of the issue is not yet known. 
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April 09, 2024 21:00
Series is a type, not a field.
I already made an attempt in another thread and René also said that this is just a grouping of stamps to make it easy for sellers.
So I would just keep the old definition of Series here. After all, it makes no sense to throw all the stamps into one series over several years (then we return to the issue of issuing).
A series is a grouping of 1 or more stamps with the same date of issue that are considered as one whole by the postal authorities.
A (long-term) issue can then consist of 1 or more series.

And if the authorities, Michel and Yvert no longer know, then an administrator will have to decide.
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April 09, 2024 22:11
Well, the serial items (which only exist in the stamp section on LastDodo and nowhere else) are now often all common stamps in issue and they are not always issued on the same day.
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April 10, 2024 00:59
A series only contains stamps that were issued on the same day
Is that a rule set by LastDodo? If so, where is it located?
Or is that a philatelic use and why wouldn't LD use its own definition? Rene likes to quote the Dutch "Zeehelden" series. These were certainly not published on the same day and really seem like a series to me. The same applies to many long-running series (both the former Franking Stamps and the current Occasional Stamps).

Well, the serial items (which only exist in the stamp section on LastDodo and nowhere else) are now often all common stamps in issue and they are not always issued on the same day.
Do you mean that a new definition of issue/series also leads to an adjustment of the series that are now in LD? Or do you mean a different definition of issuance that better fits what is customary in the trade? I know I'm annoying, but I can't separate the two, which is why I brought it up in the other thread.

And what was mentioned by someone earlier, the rules for "title" may also be discussed immediately in the same context, now the following applies: "All stamps from a series generally have the same title".

For the record, I don't actively use the Series item myself and have little sense of how others use it. As an administrator, I therefore like to have clear rules (and yes, there may be limited exceptions here too).


Loriot from an administrator's point of view, I am not happy with "Provisional series", what are you going to do with it when new stamps are added? Banned all connected users to "Deleted"?
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April 10, 2024 09:01
Helv Also read the thread about issuance (really not easy to read, everything is duplicated)
- now the definition does not state anywhere that it concerns 1 date, but after all we are working on a new definition, what is stopping us from reducing that and doing so?
- LD does what he wants, we should not adhere to a different catalog or usage
- thinking about the new definition of Issue, is it not time to talk about the Zeehelden issue containing the serial items of the different dates (so any collector can get away with it, in one album they may be included as a whole , in the other album they may be separate per issue date)

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April 10, 2024 09:34
Jummeke I have no preference for a definition of Series as long as it is clear.
Thinking about the new definition of Issue, is it not time to talk about the Zeehelden issue containing the serial items of the different dates (so any collector can get away with it, in one album they may be included as a whole, in the other album they may be separate per issue date)
So I see this exactly the other way around:
It is more logical to talk about a series of Zeehelden with multiple issues. I would like to combine the Zeehelden series in the Zeehelden field and you could then name the individual issues in the Title.


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April 10, 2024 09:43
Do you mean that a new definition of issue/series also leads to an adjustment of the series that are now in LD? Or do you mean a different definition of issuance that better fits what is customary in the trade? I know I'm annoying, but I can't separate the two, which is why I brought it up in the other thread.

What I just wrote:

Series items came from the Collect-a-Rom database that was the source for our stamp section (that's why we only have these types of items with stamps). They were mainly intended to offer or purchase the stamps that were common to buy/sell together in one go. For that reason I would just keep them because that advantage is still there. And of course many sellers, seekers and people who have it in their collection are attached to these items.
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April 10, 2024 10:57
A question about the type Series , does this only apply to the type Seal ?. Or does series also apply, for example for the types, Se-tenant , Bridge pair , Color variety , Perforation variety , Automatic seal , Roll seal , Seal with tab and a few others? Because in principle these are all stamps.

Furthermore, for the definition of series, I would use the stamps from the complete issue, or if the issue is too large and it is divided, only the parts as a series. Apparently the series item is mainly intended for sale, but here the combination sale is a much better instrument. Especially with a wide format issue, all stamps are together.

That is why I see no need to allow incomplete series. In the future then!.
As Rene already indicates, many shops and collectors are already interested in the series that are already in the catalogue.
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April 10, 2024 13:15
Functionality of the series:
Raoul explained the advantages of the 'Series' type in his message of April 9 at 8:42 PM in the thread Definition of Issue page 11
Just because some people don't use the Series type doesn't mean that others don't. So those are the benefits.
Boundary condition:
A series can only be a series of individual stamps. This is what is mentioned in the basic manual and is therefore tolerated. So no series of or with Se-tenant, bridge pairs, stamps with tab, etc.
Rack:
In more than 95% of cases it will be abundantly clear what a series is. Difficulties will only arise with similar stamps from more long-term sets of stamps. These are mainly the postage stamps. We have now included these similar stamps in the issue. This is where the problem arises.
Problem (using two examples):
A - Is #1917283 1 series or is it an issue consisting of 4 series (there are 4 issue dates from 1956 to 1958)
B - Is #8933315 1 series or is it an issue consisting of 2 series ( #2672255 and #2672261 from respectively. 1951 and 1953).
Sellers will like to see both cases as 1 series. They can and, above all, want to offer this, as Raoul already indicated. One issue is also a bit clearer for searching, but I don't think that is a major issue. It is more logical to have 4 resp. Can be made into 2 series. This is more in line with the more than 95% problem-free cases, where the stamps in the series simply have 1 day of issue. Splitting is also better to make the distinction between series and issue clearer. Good luck.
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April 10, 2024 13:16
So I see this exactly the other way around:
It is more logical to talk about a series of Zeehelden with multiple issues. I would like to combine the Zeehelden series in the Zeehelden field and you could then name the individual issues in the Title.
It's tiring when the administrators start using all the names interchangeably.
So we are talking about a [new name Issue] containing multiple issues (which can no longer be traced, except by date). Each issue has a series item (series is not a field!). You can forget the Title field, that is arbitrary, no one can get that in order and you cannot filter on it anyway, so it has no added value.
Rene
Series remains what it is today, for sale. Until now, 1 series = 1 issue. If in the future multiple series = 1 [new name Issue] then you can eliminate the <0.1% of exceptions by saying that it must be 1 issue date.
Charles1971
Series are the common stamps (seal with a tab is still debatable if they always appear that way), intended for current sales and for inexperienced users who simply collect each stamp once. Varieties and fantasies have no place here.
Edit: Those who want to offer more can sell combinations, but if we make a series of, for example, 20 stamps, almost no one will be able to sell this.
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April 10, 2024 13:17
Series items came from the Collect-a-Rom database that was the source for our stamp section (that's why we only have these types of items with stamps). They were mainly intended to offer or purchase the stamps that were common to buy/sell together in one go. For that reason I would just keep them because that advantage is still there
Series have been added not only by CAR, but also by regular collectors. What are the criteria for whether or not to enforce it?

Example 1
#6130153 and #5991691 .
You can see from the Michel numbers 4788#4791 and 4810#4813 that Michel considers them as a separate series.
According to the new criteria, these stamps clearly belong together (and even under the old one this was already allowed). Will these two series continue to exist separately? The individual stamps (and other items) are now already together.

In this case, both series fit under the criterion of Jummeke (stamps issued on the same day 16-11-1978 and 25-12-1978).

Example 2
#2247141 issue dates July 12, 1980 and July 21, 1980. Is it right that these stamps form a series? Or should this be split into two series (1 with 1 stamp dated July 12 and 1 with 2 stamps dated July 21).
Is it correct that this series is part of an issue from 1977. Are the other stamps in this issue sufficiently similar?
My opinion is not, but apparently another collector/manager had a different opinion.

By the way, the year 1977 seems wrong to me anyway. As an area manager, however, I have not yet been able to examine large parts of the SU. Fortunately, there is now good help from a fellow collector.

Example 3
#2173815 (3 stamps)
#8724403 (4 stamps)
The three seals #2173815 were issued on the same day (July 16, 1980).
Michel considers these three stamps together with the stamp that appeared on August 2 as an issue. In the new definition, LD will also cluster these stamps into four.
Personally, I really see it as two different issues. The first three were published on the subject of the Baltic States, the fourth on the subject of Moldova. This is also how the original importers and managers viewed it. Recently there was a user who attempted to merge the stamps. Possibly justified under the new vision, but not under the name Baltic Republics.

Keep both series? Or reject either?

Example 4
#2166759 (8 stamps - 1 series in Yvert, 2 series in Michel)
#8720037 (6 stamps - 1 series as included in Michel)
However, with a similar pattern, 15 stamps (if LD is complete, otherwise even more) were issued between 1957 and 1959.


I personally agree with what Jummeke writes in the other thread (in retrospect, splitting was not that useful):
- The term “first day of issue” is common. The field (which we will therefore interpret as larger) may not be called Issue.
- An Issue field will no longer exist, you do that in your head, but that means that all current exceptions/groupings of issues are actually not possible, while they can be done in our new field
- the Series type will therefore be per date, since several series can be together
As a starting point for this thread, I agree with the basic rule:
a series of stamps is issued on the same date and a "Series" can contain multiple series.

However, it does not match what often happens with the long-running "Series", e.g #550139 .

edit:
I wrote this thread in parallel with some of the above. I'm responding here to Rene's last post
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Helv
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April 10, 2024 13:41
You can forget the Title field, that is arbitrary, no one can get that in order and you cannot filter on it anyway, so it has no added value.
In some cases it is clearly known what the name of the [limited form of issue] is. As a collector I would like to see them in the catalogue. Of course, not every user knows that, but I think that if you follow your proposal for the item Series, you can use the Title as an information field what the [limited issue] is called because it can now no longer be entered under [new name Issue] .
As I previously argued for [new name Issue], LD has a very powerful search engine, which can also help me find what I need if the Title is linked to the name of the [limited Issue].

What you see a lot at the moment is that there is considerable overlap between Title and the name of [limited edition]. The funny thing is that the title already uses "Series" as a reference and not [Limited Edition]. With your clear definition of Series, this method can (largely?) remain intact.

Not every user will know the issue name, which is already overcome by the current rule in the Stamp Manual:
An administrator can decide to adjust a title if it contains errors or for reasons of uniformity and recognizability of the catalog.
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April 10, 2024 13:57
It is more logical to have 4 resp. Can be made into 2 series. This is more in line with the more than 95% problem-free cases, where the stamps in the series simply have 1 day of issue. Splitting is also better to make the distinction between series and issue clearer

Series is an item with a major commercial approach.
I am also available for multiple series in one issue. It remains usable. After all, anyone who wants to offer the 'complete issue' can always combine 2 or 3 items (with the Series type). It is always more convenient than combining 15 or 20 separate items. And ... if you use Issue properly, you can have them together in an overview in one click. You don't have to follow the long path from the detail of one series item (country + enter + year from-to + enter + select 'Series' as type + enter + scroll and search).
It doesn't work the other way around. If you want to offer a part, and there is only 1 series that also contains the rest, you will have to fall back on (the combination of) individual items in your offer.
With multiple series, perhaps my biggest problem with those things has also been solved (or can be solved). If you have a series of the postage stamps, a series of the airmail stamps, and a series of everything (postage + airmail) ... who gets to stay and who has to go?
The intention is that all series of an issue together do not contain any overlaps. However?
Otherwise we open the gate to excess (everyone can add their own creative - philatelic - commercial interpretation of the series), and you can get issues with more series items than single stamp items. Suppose I make series with the stamps with a decimal face value, and series with the non-decimal face values. Or the odd values together, and the equal values together in another series. The landscape stamps in a series and the portrait stamps in a series. I think it would be a disaster.
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April 10, 2024 13:59
What I (very) used to consider a series of stamps:
One copy of each nominal value of identically shaped stamps, one after the other in order of nominal value.

But that simple thought apparently no longer applies :-)
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April 10, 2024 14:07
But that simple thought apparently no longer applies :-)
I estimate that in more than 98% of cases that traditional classification still applies, even with a more strict definition.
It's really about the exceptions (particularly in long-term issues), for which LD needs to find a definition that can be used by collectors worldwide and independently of other catalogs.
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April 10, 2024 14:45
Series is an item with a major commercial approach.

Beats. I would just tolerate them in the catalog unless there is something really strange about them.
Ultimately, they indirectly help to finance the platform, and therefore also the catalogue.

under the Jummeke criterion (stamps issued in one day

In any case, I would not choose that as a criterion Helv Jummeke, because then the often-mentioned sea heroes series can no longer be bought or sold in one go.

In principle, a serial item is an item depicting the individual stamps in an issue (because the Machin stamps have been split into multiple issues, so you do not have a serial item with all Machin stamps ever published).
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April 10, 2024 15:27
Beats. I would just tolerate them in the catalog unless there is something really strange about them.
So LastDodo lets Michel, Yvert and NVPH dictate what a series is?

because then the often-mentioned sea heroes series can no longer be purchased or sold in one go.
May I also add the Series "Germanic symbols and naval heroes". This is how this nameljik appears in the popular, therefore commercially relevant, Michel.
Under which [New Issue Name] may it appear?
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April 10, 2024 15:36
So LastDodo lets Michel, Yvert and NVPH dictate what a series is?

We have had serial items since 2008, mainly to make purchasing and selling easier.
What exactly is the problem you have with that Helv ?

If we say that a serial item is an item depicting the individual stamps in an issue, then we have nothing to do with other catalogs, but only with our own definition of issue, right?

Under which [New Issue Name] may it appear?

This cannot be added because with us this is not part of an issue.

With 871,000 stamps in our catalogue, and multiples of that in all other catalogues, it will never be difficult to find exceptions to the rules. Just don't let that stop you from making agreements and laying down rules.
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April 10, 2024 16:37
Just because 95% of the 'series' items match Michel, Yvert or some catalog doesn't mean it was dictated by some catalog. 95% of the series is just common sense, watching, seeing and judging. The hot water there is just as warm as here (and vice versa). With the big hope there is no need to think about it, you can see it like this. Considering these sea heroes as a series seems correct at a glance. They fit together perfectly in one card club.

First of all, we must ensure that we do not have an excess of serial items anytime soon. Series items that may have been the result of misplaced creativity. Just as many serial items were artificially composed years ago (made behind a computer screen without having the stamps themselves in hand) to be placed on LD. RTBF, you should have a name like that. I think every day that I have to forget that.

1. The serial item is simply a commercial item. That's how it came about.
2. In addition, it is of great use to the 'series' collectors. The collectors who are not after individual stamps, but want to obtain a larger, more complete part each time. They also manage hub collection and search list on LD in this way. For those searchers and suppliers, the serial item is indeed the same in the catalog!
3. It is also easy to use for administrative work (which is often, and just as well, done by users!).
4. They are items like any other, which are added and need to be checked (reviewed) by administrators.

Result:
- anyone who does not recognize themselves in one of these 4 roles does not need to follow this discussion. Because I think we have opted for a long and wide cable again instead of a short and powerful one;
- if search and supply work with the same items, then supply and demand are matched;
- overlap (individual stamps that are included in multiple series within the issue) is the death knell for 2 and 3. This means you cannot manage a collection (search), and as a supplier you can no longer respond to demand (and vice versa);
- overlapping makes 3 a lot more difficult, and causes additional work for 4.

For those who cannot grasp the abstract, a concrete example.
An issue of Butterflies from Burundi.
The issue consists of postage stamps and airmail stamps. I limit myself to the serrated ones, and there are no blocks included. Completely independent of situations, whether disguised or not.

Suppose you have an administrator on it, and you want to help him as a super administrator. Then the question arises:
- is the serial item with all stamps ( #1523405 ) the serial item in the issue, which means that serial items with part (postage or airmail) are not allowed?
- the serial item with the airmail stamps ( #5255851 ) is a valid serial item (the serial item of the postage stamps will therefore be valid if it is ever added), and is therefore not the serial item with all the stamps allowed?
- let us be guided by the oldest item (or the oldest adder...)?
- we pretend that our nose bleeds and hope that the problem will go away on its own...
The question has been asked several times (also on the forum, a long time ago, even before Issue was discussed).
The question has even been asked via PM, once.
I'm still left with that question, without an answer.

The answer can be '1 series', '2 series' is also possible. According to my understanding, both are valid states. But '3 series' is not possible (according to my understanding). Then you embarrass reels 2 and 3. Then you get overlap. You can't justify that.
Then you cannot refuse an added series for the small format stamps and one for the large format stamps in that issue (we are already at 5 series, if overlap is not a problem).
And why not the stamps with yellow butterflies, one with green butterflies, and another series (while we're at it) with red butterflies, one for striped butterflies, and another for butterflies with dots on them. It is spring after all. Butterflies everywhere :)

I'm still left with that question, without an answer.

Sensus communis evanescit, quae accipit in nervis
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Helv
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April 10, 2024 17:05
1. The serial item is simply a commercial item. That's how it came about.
My approach is not to cancel the serial item, but to clarify what may and may not be in the catalogue, ie my intrinsic interest falls under point 4. From that approach I have given a number of examples where I do not know what the right decision is. Raoul62 adds another example and illustrates that the existing ambiguity can also be recognized (thanks for that).

Because this is a Dutch forum ;-)
Sensus communis evanescit, quae accipit in nervis
Common sense disappears, which gets on the nerves.
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April 10, 2024 17:32
no:
When common sense disappears, it starts to get on your nerves.
But it was in the right direction.

It's reverse engineering (or upside down world). Normally you develop based on a thorough study and you offer something, with the necessary explanation. It has been offered here for years, and a good definition/description/explanation is now being sought.
We must now mainly look at usage. who uses it and why.

Obviously it's unclear. For quite some time now. The example was just one of many (similar).
I'm still left with that question, without an answer.
With a clear answer I can already identify a lot that needs to be corrected. After which, given the time that passed, unfortunately only a super administrator can finalize it.
Don't worry, I won't report hundreds of them at once. There really is no need to explode a bomb (because it will require quite a bit of work, which I take into account).
The hope that we can soon move forward softens the resentment.
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